Jump to content




Photo
* * * * * 1 votes

Spongy Brakes - Testing


  • Please log in to reply
37 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   Sparg93

 
Sparg93

    Troll Hunter

  • Premium Member
  • 1,801 posts
    • Time Online: 13h 59m 38s
602
Listen To This Guy!
  • Name:Craig
  • LocationBoston, MA
  • Truck(s):1999 Chevy Tahoe (Expedition Style)
Garage View Garage
 

Awards Bar:
Users Awards

Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:49 AM

Ok, so i've been doing quite a bit of reading on our crappy stock brakes sporadically for awhile. The reviews were great and tons of good info, but no technical data to go off (i.e. braking distances).

So, i was thinking of doing a complete review of the components individually (and in combination) so folks could make an informed decision of budget v performance.

Here are the upgrades planned:
Hawk LTS Pads
Power Slot Rotors
Goodridge SS Lines
3/4 ton calipers
High End Brake Fluid (Blue)

The ultimate - Hydroboost Conversion

Here is what I will test:
1) Test just the improvement from new brake fluid - all the original hardware stays on, just a brake bleed
2) Test the new brake pads and discs with 3/4 calipers
4) Test with the hydroboost conversion

If you have a recommendation for a different test or changing up the order on either scenario, please let me know!!

My thoughts are to run the truck up to 60mph x3 and measure the distance. For each test I'll also allow the new components to warm up over a 15 min period of driving in the same area.

It's going to be impossible to control all the variables (ambient temp, hardware temp, etc) but i'll try to keep it as controlled as possible. I'll also take photos of the work in progress so everyone can see.

Edited by Sparg93, 14 October 2012 - 08:55 AM.

___________________________________________________________

sparg93_zpsda69f302.gif

Troll Hunter Build Thread - http://www.gmc4x4.co...n-troll-hunter/

 

GMC4x4 - How To Section - http://www.gmc4x4.co...ow-to-articles/

 

 

 


#2 OFFLINE   Sparg93

 
Sparg93

    Troll Hunter

  • Premium Member
  • 1,801 posts
    • Time Online: 13h 59m 38s
602
Listen To This Guy!
  • Name:Craig
  • LocationBoston, MA
  • Truck(s):1999 Chevy Tahoe (Expedition Style)
Garage View Garage
 

Awards Bar:
Users Awards

Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:53 AM

Some seat of the pants data for now:

New braking components plus AC Delco 2500 (3/4 ton) calipers and there was no improvement. I went from stock config to Hawk LTS Pads, Power Slot Rotors, Stainless Lines, AC Delco 3/4ton calipers, and blue brake fluid and there was no difference. At first I thought it was slightly firmer (probably more hope then anything), but then I realized I was going deeper into the pedal to stop.

I'm still running my vacuum brake system so my belief is that bc the 3/4t calipers have larger pistons, it's taking more fluid (i.e. pressure) to actuate them..which is why my results are subpar at the moment.

The only improvement was in the wet and I believe that was due to the powerslot rotors.

Right now the master cyclinder and vacuum system is my weak link. The hydroboost conversion is a LOT of work and expensive, but I'm hoping this will give me the results I'm looking for.

Just so everyone knows - the 1/2t Master Cylinder and 3/t Mastery Cylinder are NOT direct swaps.

Posted Image

Net net...if you are NOT going to change the master cyclinder or vacuum booster, DO NOT buy 2500 calipers.

Edited by Sparg93, 14 October 2012 - 09:02 AM.

___________________________________________________________

sparg93_zpsda69f302.gif

Troll Hunter Build Thread - http://www.gmc4x4.co...n-troll-hunter/

 

GMC4x4 - How To Section - http://www.gmc4x4.co...ow-to-articles/

 

 

 


#3 OFFLINE   Sparg93

 
Sparg93

    Troll Hunter

  • Premium Member
  • 1,801 posts
    • Time Online: 13h 59m 38s
602
Listen To This Guy!
  • Name:Craig
  • LocationBoston, MA
  • Truck(s):1999 Chevy Tahoe (Expedition Style)
Garage View Garage
 

Awards Bar:
Users Awards

Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:53 AM

Ok, so here's the data!!

Due to me being solo for this and a lack of any scientific equipment other then a wheel with a built in counter (no idea what it's called), these numbers have a high chance of error...so please don't take these stopping distances (60mph - 0) as gold. What I think is important is the changes between and overall average of each setup.

Vacuum, 1/2t calipers, 1/2t pads, 265 tires, stock height (OEM setup)
1st pass - 138ft
2nd pass - 136ft
3rd pass - 135ft

Vacuum, 3/4t calipers, 3/4t Hawk LTS pads, Slotted rotors, 265 tires, stock height
1st pass - 146ft
2nd pass - 148ft
3rd pass - 142ft

HYDROBOOST, 3/4t Master, 3/4t PS pump, 3/4t calipers, 3/4t Hawk LTS pads, 285/70R17, 4.5" lift
1st pass - 134ft
2nd pass - 130ft
3rd pass - 129ft

 

EDIT: On 5/21/13, I did testing on new Hawk SD pads I installed, results below.  In this test, there was additional weight in the truck from x2 steel bumpers, one winch, x1 33" spare tire on rim and a steel roof rack.  Temp was 90 deg, quite a bit warmer then previous tests and my rear drums had new shoes in the rear (~2k highway miles).  Also, I swapped in Bilstein 5100's which provided noticeably better dampening then previous 5150's.

 

HYDROBOOST, 3/4t Master, 3/4t PS pump, 3/4t calipers, 1/2t Hawk SD (Super Duty) pads, 285/70R17, 5.0" lift

1st pass - 127 feet

2nd pass - 117 feet

3rd pass - 107 feet

4th pass - 112 feet

5th pass - 108 feet

Surprisingly, each day I did the testing, it was about 50deg.

Additional info:
- My shocks were not setup correctly when I did the hydroboost passes, so with firmer valving, I have a feeling a few feet will be knocked off
- During the hydroboost test, my truck was a few hundred pounds heavier with the lift kit, bigger tires and tools in the back then when I completed testing with the vacuum setup

Some observations:
- DO NOT BUY 3/4T CALIPERS UNLESS YOU HYDROBOOST - you're stopping distances will INCREASE. Also, the 3/4t master will not bolt up to you vacuum system
- Hydroboost was able to finally lock the tires and create a small patch of rubber...my vacuum was not able to do that

Some negatives:
Using all new AC Delco parts (do not buy cardone, they tend to leak), expect to spend $750+ and three days doing this for first timers. You're upgrading the master cyclinder, PS pump, hydroboost unit, GM variable assist bypass, three lines and you should add a Power steering cooler...this stuff adds up really fast. You can always go used and ppl have had a lot of success, but for brakes, I personally always buy new.

Hydro units have a propensity to leak and are expensive to have rebuilt. If you buy used, definitely get some kind of guarantee that if it leaks, you can return. My first (new AC Delco) unit leaked and it took a week to get another one...

Also, you may need to cut and re-flare brake lines where it connects to the Master Cylinder...so definitely know what you're doing before you rip into your truck's braking system. This is a job that is straightforward, but definitely requires someone who is comfortable working on multiple components and understanding when something is installed correctly (i.e. always replace orings, use line wrenches and torque to the correct settings!)

Everyone has a different preference, but I really hate that i lost variable steering. My rig rode like a boat prior, once I bypassed my variable assist, steering got even softer. With the months of research I did, I could not find a hydroboosted truck that had variable assist....so plan on bypassing it b/c otherwise you will restrict the amount of fluid your hydro unit receives.

I hope this helps everyone in the endless quest to stop these rigs! Please feel free to ask any question you may have!!

Part #'s:
Power Steering Return Hose - AC Delco 36-368640
Power Steering Pressure Hose - AC Delco 36-365460
Power Steering Pressure Hose - AC Delco 36-365490
Power Steering Pump - AC Delco 36-517137
Master Cylinder - AC Delco 174-722
Hydroboost Unit - AC Delco 178-578
Variable Bypass - GM #19168825
OEM PS Cooler (from gmpartsgiant) - 26041420 & 15655032 (bracket)
Hydro Brake Pedal - LMC currently sells it


A good writeup for the install - http://www.gmfullsize.com/forum/showthread.php?t=156800


Edited by Hedge, 21 May 2013 - 03:11 PM.

___________________________________________________________

sparg93_zpsda69f302.gif

Troll Hunter Build Thread - http://www.gmc4x4.co...n-troll-hunter/

 

GMC4x4 - How To Section - http://www.gmc4x4.co...ow-to-articles/

 

 

 


#4 OFFLINE   WalterMitty

 
WalterMitty

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 195 posts
    • Time Online: 12h 48m 29s
149
Showoff
Garage View Garage
 

Posted 14 October 2012 - 09:32 AM

I guess I've grown accustomed to these GM brakes, but the best low-buck thing I have found to improve pedal travel and feel is at the rear axle.

On both of the GMT400 trucks I've owned, the rear axle adjusters just haven't worked right. It's probably due to the fact that I haven't done a great deal of towing, and that I'm easy on the brakes when I drive. But the result is that at some point the adjusters on the rear get stuck while the shoes continue to slowly wear. A bonus effect is that as the front discs do more and more of the braking, the pads wear faster and the rear shoes seem to polish the drum and take on a slickish finish themselves.

Now back in the day, auto adjusters didn't exist, and all us grey beards knew we had to crawl out under our vehicles and adjust brakes. The same needs to be done on these trucks. So some Saturday get the rear axle off the ground and pull the drums. Inspect for leaking wheel cylinders. Shoes and drums coated with brake fluid greatly reduces brake performance, and you really need that rear axle doing its' part to haul these behemoths down from speed.

If everything is dry, use brake cleaner to get all the dust and crud out of the mechanisms. Once you can see everything and it is drying take emery cloth to the shoes and drums and break the glaze that has formed. It's kinda hard to overdo this part, just don't leave any deep gouges in the shoes or drums.

Now for the big improvement. Find the star adjuster and turn it, I put some high temp lithium grease on the threads. Careful, grease in the wrong places doesn't help. Open the shoes as far as you can and still get the drum back on; the tighter the better. I use a tool to remove the lip on the inside of the drum if there is one.

If the shoes and drums are dry and properly adjusted, you may be amazed at how much better the pedal travel and braking performance is.

:)

#5 OFFLINE   Russell

 
Russell

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 208 posts
    • Time Online: 1d 5h 21m 55s
150
Showoff
  • LocationFort McMurray, Alberta, Canada
Garage View Garage
 

Posted 14 October 2012 - 02:00 PM

Like everyone else, I have always had issue with the spongy brakes on these trucks. My Tahoe was no exception... While my braking adventure is a bit different than you guys due to the intended purpose of my truck and also the solid axle swap, lots of it will still apply.

As mentioned by Walter, 90% of the problem with the spongy feeling and excessive travel is due to the rear drums. To both deal with this issue, and also to ensure my rear wheels wouldn't fall off if I broke an axle shaft on my semi floating 14 bolt while wheeling I did a disc brake swap on it. The front of my Tahoe already had discs, like all do, so I didn't figure the volume would be too terribly different when I did the swap to the D60 up front using stock Chevy D60 outers with single piston brakes.

Initital attempts to bleed the brakes out quickly proved that something was wrong. I couldn't get a solid pedal out of the truck no matter how much bleeding I did. A little thinking helped me realize what was up. My truck was factory equipped with hydro boost/ the stock master cylinder and an ABS unit proportioned for disc / drum. I didn't want the ABS and had it un-plugged anyways as ABS is not a good thing when offroading and can actually be quite dangerous. I did some reasearch and discovered that the 99 Suburbans with a 6.5L came factory with hydro boost and 4 wheel disc brakes. I picked up a master cylinder for one and found out that the bore was increased from around .75" to 1.5". I also replaced the ABS unit with a Wilwood disc / disc proportioning valve with an adjustable rear circuit.

With these upgrades I was able to gain some pedal and the truck was driveable, but I had horrible proportioning. My rear brakes would lock up far before the fronts would even with the rear circuit turned down as much as possible with the prop valve. I did some thinking, and realized was the problem was. My rear caliper pistons were much smaller in diameter than the stock D60 calipers. So, I did some reasearch and found that if I upgraded to Solid Axle Industries outers, I'd be able to run their 10 bolt caliper kit up front. It is designed to allow the use of 15" wheels on a D60 without grinding, but I just wanted the brakes.

With the new outers installed and the front diff fitted with the same 10 bolt calipers as the rear, suddenly I had a firm pedal right up at the top of it's throw and suddenly the fronts were locking up long before the rears. I did some tweaking with the adjustable rear circuit and voila! Brakes that has the front locking up just a hair before the rear with a very firm pedal.

I suspect that if a guy was to get a disc brake rear axle from a 99, along with it's ABS unit proportioned for disc disc / a disc / disc master cylinder, all the braking issues of one of these trucks stock would be resolved.

Edited by Russell, 14 October 2012 - 02:03 PM.

___________________________________________________________

Posted Image

1995 Chevrolet Tahoe 2 Door "Penny"
- 6.6L LB7 Duramax Diesel / ZF6 / NP241
- SAS on Ford HP Kingpin D60 front / 14 bolt semi floater rear
- 52" springs with ORD SAS kit front, ORD shackle flip rear
- 37" Kevlar MTRs on Trail Ready beadlocks

#6 OFFLINE   BurbanAZ

 
BurbanAZ

    Advanced Member

  • Moderators

  • 1,236 posts
    • Time Online: 7d 17h 24m 4s
569
Listen To This Guy!
  • Name:Chris
  • LocationTucson, AZ
  • Occupation:Firefighter/ EMT
  • Truck(s):2004 Toyota 4runner Sport Edition, V8, 4x4
Garage View Garage
 

Awards Bar:
Users Awards

Posted 14 October 2012 - 04:00 PM

yea the braking system on these trucks can definitely cause some problems sometimes. I am about to have to start looking into mine because of a "spongy" brake pedal and its just not stopping like it should. I had my 92 3/4ton for a while so i know how these trucks should stop. Now my 94 3/4ton stops way worse than my 92 did. Im thinking the the rear brakes were neglected so im going to go through and replace what needs replaced and see what difference that makes. Drums are one of those things that people always seem to neglect until they are completely gone basically just because they are more of a pain to service than disc brakes.
___________________________________________________________

GMC4x4banner_04_15_13_600x200_zpseb5c991

2004 Toyota 4runner 4x4 Sport, V8 (GM at heart)


#7 OFFLINE   DonYukon

 
DonYukon

    The Don

  • Moderators

  • 4,761 posts
    • Time Online: 40d 9h 20m 11s
2,510
Hail The Almighty!
  • Name:Donovan
  • LocationBordentown NJ
  • Occupation:I Moderate Stuff
  • Truck(s):1998 GMC Yukon
Garage View Garage
 

Awards Bar:
Users Awards

Posted 14 October 2012 - 07:48 PM

this is something that i need to look into now , with my bigger tires its getting annoying when people slam on the brakes in front of me and I'm left hoping that i don't drive away with a new hood ornament like a KIA or mazda
___________________________________________________________

640cd56c-097e-4a85-a976-91be1f76faad_zps

1998 GMC Yukon 4x4


#8 OFFLINE   AA1PR

 
AA1PR

    Disabled Adventurer

  • Moderators

  • 8,856 posts
    • Time Online: 61d 14h 13m 22s
3,243
Hail The Almighty!
  • Name:Mike
  • LocationVermont Mountains
  • Occupation:Psych
  • Truck(s):2004 GMC Yukon with 1966 Stevens M416 in tow
Garage View Garage
 

Awards Bar:
Users Awards

Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:35 PM

so does your model year have the dual piston calipers & larger rotors?

I thought when the buyer opted for the larger tire option of 17" it also allowed for these dual piston calipers & rotors which were an added bonus

not sure if all the vehicles got that option or not

I run the ceramic brakes & notice some improvment in braking & wear
___________________________________________________________

2004 GMC Yukon, 4X4 SLT, 5.3L Vortec, ~ Yukon Build Thread
Trail Master 2.5" leveling keys, SkyJacker Shocks -upfront, Monroe MA830 Air shocks rear & MOOG rear coils,  EGR 1.25" Fender Flares
Putco Punch grille insert, gamut of Putco chrome accessories, & IPCW chrome/clear Crystal Eyes taillights
N-Fab light bar & Hella 700FF's,  Running on 33's BFG TA KO 

Radio Comm equipped 3.5mhz to 450 (analog& digital modes), Magellan Roadmate 1700 7" GPS & Delorme handheld

1966 Stevens M416 trailer too ~ M416 Build thread

 

"Now she is gone I got my Yukon"    ExpeditionNorth.com

 

newbanner1.jpg


#9 OFFLINE   Sparg93

 
Sparg93

    Troll Hunter

  • Premium Member
  • 1,801 posts
    • Time Online: 13h 59m 38s
602
Listen To This Guy!
  • Name:Craig
  • LocationBoston, MA
  • Truck(s):1999 Chevy Tahoe (Expedition Style)
Garage View Garage
 

Awards Bar:
Users Awards

Posted 14 October 2012 - 09:06 PM

so does your model year have the dual piston calipers & larger rotors?

I thought when the buyer opted for the larger tire option of 17" it also allowed for these dual piston calipers & rotors which were an added bonus

not sure if all the vehicles got that option or not

I run the ceramic brakes & notice some improvment in braking & wear


I'm not aware of any OBS rigs with dual piston calipers. I think even the 1 tons had a single piston...

Walter - that is great intel and should be part of most people's maintenance. This week I'm digging into my rears so this is perfect timing.

Russell - sounds like you really went to town on your rig. I actually have the 14bsf and a disc conversion kit waiting for it...but I haven't yet figured out exactly how I want to alter the valving...I'll definitely have to pick your brain when I can find a solid weekend to install.
___________________________________________________________

sparg93_zpsda69f302.gif

Troll Hunter Build Thread - http://www.gmc4x4.co...n-troll-hunter/

 

GMC4x4 - How To Section - http://www.gmc4x4.co...ow-to-articles/

 

 

 


#10 OFFLINE   DonYukon

 
DonYukon

    The Don

  • Moderators

  • 4,761 posts
    • Time Online: 40d 9h 20m 11s
2,510
Hail The Almighty!
  • Name:Donovan
  • LocationBordentown NJ
  • Occupation:I Moderate Stuff
  • Truck(s):1998 GMC Yukon
Garage View Garage
 

Awards Bar:
Users Awards

Posted 14 October 2012 - 11:51 PM

you are correct all OBS were singles
___________________________________________________________

640cd56c-097e-4a85-a976-91be1f76faad_zps

1998 GMC Yukon 4x4


#11 OFFLINE   Sunlitcomet

 
Sunlitcomet

    OBS Jedi - Do the right thing.

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 81 posts
    • Time Online: 6m 45s
20
Good
  • Locationall over ther country
  • Occupation:Aviation Mechanic
Garage View Garage
 

Posted 15 October 2012 - 12:29 AM

i am just just jumping in here but dual calipers were on police vehciles i believe.

Like everyone else, I have always had issue with the spongy brakes on these trucks. My Tahoe was no exception... While my braking adventure is a bit different than you guys due to the intended purpose of my truck and also the solid axle swap, lots of it will still apply.

As mentioned by Walter, 90% of the problem with the spongy feeling and excessive travel is due to the rear drums. To both deal with this issue, and also to ensure my rear wheels wouldn't fall off if I broke an axle shaft on my semi floating 14 bolt while wheeling I did a disc brake swap on it. The front of my Tahoe already had discs, like all do, so I didn't figure the volume would be too terribly different when I did the swap to the D60 up front using stock Chevy D60 outers with single piston brakes.

Initital attempts to bleed the brakes out quickly proved that something was wrong. I couldn't get a solid pedal out of the truck no matter how much bleeding I did. A little thinking helped me realize what was up. My truck was factory equipped with hydro boost/ the stock master cylinder and an ABS unit proportioned for disc / drum. I didn't want the ABS and had it un-plugged anyways as ABS is not a good thing when offroading and can actually be quite dangerous. I did some reasearch and discovered that the 99 Suburbans with a 6.5L came factory with hydro boost and 4 wheel disc brakes. I picked up a master cylinder for one and found out that the bore was increased from around .75" to 1.5". I also replaced the ABS unit with a Wilwood disc / disc proportioning valve with an adjustable rear circuit.

With these upgrades I was able to gain some pedal and the truck was driveable, but I had horrible proportioning. My rear brakes would lock up far before the fronts would even with the rear circuit turned down as much as possible with the prop valve. I did some thinking, and realized was the problem was. My rear caliper pistons were much smaller in diameter than the stock D60 calipers. So, I did some reasearch and found that if I upgraded to Solid Axle Industries outers, I'd be able to run their 10 bolt caliper kit up front. It is designed to allow the use of 15" wheels on a D60 without grinding, but I just wanted the brakes.

With the new outers installed and the front diff fitted with the same 10 bolt calipers as the rear, suddenly I had a firm pedal right up at the top of it's throw and suddenly the fronts were locking up long before the rears. I did some tweaking with the adjustable rear circuit and voila! Brakes that has the front locking up just a hair before the rear with a very firm pedal.

I suspect that if a guy was to get a disc brake rear axle from a 99, along with it's ABS unit proportioned for disc disc / a disc / disc master cylinder, all the braking issues of one of these trucks stock would be resolved.

you have model, weight and rpo classification of suburban with 4 wheel disc brakes?
___________________________________________________________

It's a process, http://s1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd482/Sunlitcomet/?start=all

#12 OFFLINE   Sparg93

 
Sparg93

    Troll Hunter

  • Premium Member
  • 1,801 posts
    • Time Online: 13h 59m 38s
602
Listen To This Guy!
  • Name:Craig
  • LocationBoston, MA
  • Truck(s):1999 Chevy Tahoe (Expedition Style)
Garage View Garage
 

Awards Bar:
Users Awards

Posted 15 October 2012 - 07:23 AM

Hmm...if there was a dual caliper for OBS, that would be exciting.

It's too bad the police rigs were vacuum...or I would be hunting for dual's right now.
___________________________________________________________

sparg93_zpsda69f302.gif

Troll Hunter Build Thread - http://www.gmc4x4.co...n-troll-hunter/

 

GMC4x4 - How To Section - http://www.gmc4x4.co...ow-to-articles/

 

 

 


#13 OFFLINE   Sunlitcomet

 
Sunlitcomet

    OBS Jedi - Do the right thing.

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 81 posts
    • Time Online: 6m 45s
20
Good
  • Locationall over ther country
  • Occupation:Aviation Mechanic
Garage View Garage
 

Posted 15 October 2012 - 08:08 AM

there are after market duals.

Edited by Sunlitcomet, 15 October 2012 - 08:08 AM.

___________________________________________________________

It's a process, http://s1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd482/Sunlitcomet/?start=all

#14 OFFLINE   DonYukon

 
DonYukon

    The Don

  • Moderators

  • 4,761 posts
    • Time Online: 40d 9h 20m 11s
2,510
Hail The Almighty!
  • Name:Donovan
  • LocationBordentown NJ
  • Occupation:I Moderate Stuff
  • Truck(s):1998 GMC Yukon
Garage View Garage
 

Awards Bar:
Users Awards

Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:44 AM

there are after market duals.


I thought the Police package only had bigger calipers and rotors not dual pistons? i could be wrong though
___________________________________________________________

640cd56c-097e-4a85-a976-91be1f76faad_zps

1998 GMC Yukon 4x4


#15 OFFLINE   Sparg93

 
Sparg93

    Troll Hunter

  • Premium Member
  • 1,801 posts
    • Time Online: 13h 59m 38s
602
Listen To This Guy!
  • Name:Craig
  • LocationBoston, MA
  • Truck(s):1999 Chevy Tahoe (Expedition Style)
Garage View Garage
 

Awards Bar:
Users Awards

Posted 19 October 2012 - 04:49 AM


there are after market duals.


I thought the Police package only had bigger calipers and rotors not dual pistons? i could be wrong though


Hmm, we will have to wait for someone with a Police Package to chime in! I heard a rumor once they had 3/4t calipers, but I don't think that would be wise if they were running the stock vacuum system... I upgraded to 3/4t calipers with the stock vacuum and my stopping distance definitely increased (measured).

However, they are Chevy and I am a weekend mechanic, so it's just possible they are better at brake systems then I am.
___________________________________________________________

sparg93_zpsda69f302.gif

Troll Hunter Build Thread - http://www.gmc4x4.co...n-troll-hunter/

 

GMC4x4 - How To Section - http://www.gmc4x4.co...ow-to-articles/

 

 

 





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users